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ferrethouse

quote:


Originally posted by Hinterland:
[QB]No, in other words, I think you're stupid and not worth the time.

Classy bunch here at babble. Enjoy your stimulating debates and open-mindedness.

Reality. Bites.

quote:


Originally posted by ferrethouse:
[b]

Oh. Is my advertising "costing" your forum? Perhaps I should advertise my forum in both french and english. lol. this is toooo easy.[/b]


Damn good idea. As the moderators will be pointing out to you soon, advertising on babble costs money. You will have the choice of purchasing some, knocking it off, or being banned.

Surely as a good capitalist you don't expect handouts, do you?

BleedingHeart

quote:


You mean guys like Parizeau as well?


It was Parizeau's ability to speak English with the poshest of English accents which sunk him in English Canada. We hate people who speak English better than we do.

Reality. Bites.

quote:


Originally posted by ferrethouse:
[b]i can't believe you think there isn't an opportunity cost to only having half the product to advertise on. lol.

this is really elementary. i find the intellectual level of debate much higher at FD.[/b]


And I can't believe you're stupid enough to think that opportunity outweighs the costs of triple packaging in a small market.

Recently at the supermarket I noticed a new cleaning product was labelled in English, French and Spanish. There is no requirement anywhere in the United States for Spanish labelling, yet somehow this manufacturer thought using a label that would allow the product to be sold anywhere in North America outweight the "marketing opportunities" of separate packaging.

FD does not engage in debate, they engage in mutual masturbation. By all means feel free to join your fellow wankers there. I really doubt you'll be missed.

Hinterland

quote:


Do you want me to look up the census data for major cities in western Canada? I will if you insist on keeping your blinders on. Oh, but let me guess, asians don't fly on airplanes? lol.

Please do look up the census data for all census metropolitan areas and census agglomerations in Canada (since were talking about national airlines, restricting the investigation to Western Canada is not appropriate) and correlate these data with the travel by flight rates of the populations within the census you're looking at. Then do a cost-benefit analysis to indicate whether or not airlines are in fact wasting money providing services in both official languages and whether airlines would improve their net profit/loss ratios by a) providing service in one official language only - English; b) providing service in one official language only - French; c) a combination of one official language only (English or French) and a non-official language and; d) Service in one (or more) non-official language. Then relate these findings to the overall socio-political and historical context of the Canadian confederation and posit a final conclusion. Submit work in its entirety, properly sourced to support your findings.

Thanks.

Hinterland

quote:


What I meant was, why not question the authority that tells you bilingualism is good, why not examine the concept on its merits, not just parrot back the politically correct party line.
You seem great at throwing insults, any chance of getting a logical defense of your position on bilingualism? I mean after all, I'm just a mouth breathing right winger, a genius such as yourself should have no problem explaining why it's important to have french service in the town of Ducks Ass, Alberta.

First of all, you insult the many smart people here who obviously have considered opinions about things but neither have the time nor are required to articulate in perfect detail why they think something is good. You assume they're ideological automatons adopting a position only because it's politically correct. This is baiting, and makes you a troll. Personally, I don't like you and therefore feel no obligation to bring you to a higher level of understanding if you approach me with such contempt.

Second, there are NO FRENCH SERVICES OF ANY CONSEQUENCE in Duck's Ass Alberta, unless you talk about a few designated federal positions and a couple of fucking signs. You're venting about some imaginary problem that has its roots in intolerance and that makes you a blight on public discourse.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

The Oatmeal Savage

quote:


Originally posted by BleedingHeart:
[b]
It was Parizeau's ability to speak English with the poshest of English accents which sunk him in English Canada. We hate people who speak English better than we do.[/b]

Huh? I was referring to him being a bigot, remember his crack about minorities costing him the referendum? How come bilingualism didn't stop him from being elected? Or does this power only work against english speaking people?
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's BILINGUALISM MAN!

Hinterland

quote:


Or does this power only work against english speaking people?

I would have to say yes, given the traditional enmity of North American anglophones toward the mere presence of another language. Its roots are almost always in intolerance and xenophobia, although the rightwingers have managed to reframe (ie. lie about) the issue in the dispassionate terms of pure economics. Funny, Canada is one of the most prosperous and developed countries on Earth and one of its oldest democracies, and yet bilingualism causes the country endless poverty and hardship.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

เกมส์ยิงปลาW88
Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]French speaking people all over Belgium. And they don't have 'concerned citizens groups' wetting their pants over language rights there.[/b]

Well, that's not exactly right.

The sleeper in Harper's "Belgium" model is the fact that, in Belgium, only the capital region is bilingual. Flanders is Flemish-speaking. Wallonia is French-speaking (except for the little German-speaking corner). And there are Flemish separatist groups advocating independence for Flanders -- which is odd when you realize it's larger than Wallonia. They basically want to kick the French out.

So Belgium isn't all rosy. Still, the right-wing Flemish separatists are only a nuisance so far.

CoryWillis

quote:


Originally posted by RealityBites:
[b]And I couldn't give a rat's ass if you care for ad hominem attacks on Harper or not and people here will decide whether or not to make them. By the way, those are Pearson's bilingualism policies. The process started before Trudeau was even in Parliament, but for some reason those opposed to them seem to prefer to attack Trudeau for them. I can't imagine why...[/b]

Man, go to one class and you miss a pile of snarky posts -- starting with yours, RB!

A few points:

1) I referred to Trudeau because he pushed an individual-based bilingualism concept much more firmly than Pearson (who was far from bilingual himself) and entrenched minority language rights in the Charter. I actually support the Trudeau vision, so save your defence of him for somebody else.

2) My statement that bilingualism wasn't working was based on the points that it hasn't brought the Two Solitudes closer together, nor has it significantly increased the percentage of bilingual Canadians (from 13% in 1971 to 16% in 1986). Hence my question: do we try harder with the Trudeau vision, or do we try something else? I personally support the former, and don't care for Harper's plan, since it divided Belgium more than it brought them together.

Hinterland

quote:


My statement that bilingualism wasn't working was based on the points that it hasn't brought the Two Solitudes closer together

I think you'd have to prove this. From understanding my parents' generation, each solitude (especially the English one) was barely aware of the other's presence in anything other than federal matters. And considering how communication media was so different in those days, even that awareness might have been limited.

I do know that even since my childhood, anglophone Canadians are far more aware now of issues concerning francophones than they were.

You can't confuse the battles that politicians and the effect power politics have on national discourse with how communities react to each other, on a daily basis, in mundane matters. They're not the same thing.

remind remind's picture

Alrighty then, where to start.

Okay, first by saying there are some very funny belly laugh responses here to be read, that are brilliantly wonderful by Realitybites, Scott, Hinterland et al. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

Now fidel, not knowing just where you are coming from, as I have not researchd your profile I will say endeavour to reply to your less than concrete points.

quote:

Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by remind:
According to Reality Bites link, Belgium has 102% debt servicing from the GDP as opposed to Canada's 77%, yep we surely need to model ourselves after them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone can balance a budget. Conservative politicians in the States did so in leading up to 1929 and world-wide failure of laissez faire capitalism. Mauru and East Timor are debt free. Socialist Norway has no external debt. Before Tommy Douglas, Saskatchewan had about 130 miles of paved roads. Tommy added thousands of miles of paved highway and roads. And TC Douglas balanced a budget for 17 years straight in Saskatchewan.

[/b]


What has balancing a budget got to do with servicing debt? Other than if you balanced it you would not have debt? My point was their model appears to be expensive to maintain and really why bother?

Just think of the costs incurred if we were to switch over. Just imagine how long it would take to switch over. Just imagine what we could to with our own highly functioning successful country with that time and money.

What the hell, you have to go back to 1929 to give an examople of 1 Conservative government balancing a budget. What does that say to you about Conservative fiscal responsibility , eh? Moreover, what does it have to do with Harper and his wanting to make us over in Belguim's image?

Glad to see you noted that it is socialist countries and places that have balanced budgets and no debt, but again what has that to do with Belguim and Harper?


quote:

[b]

"There also would be every ethnicity being self determining. That ought to make things function very well, eh."

French speaking people all over Belgium. And they don't have 'concerned citizens groups' wetting their pants over language rights there.[/b]


Read the article and read some history and current events on Belguim, you may get a different picture.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: remind ]

Nam

quote:


Originally posted by ferrethouse:
[b]

If that is your definition of success. I guess it is a question of priorties though (or in the case of the Liberals - lack of priorties). Most people recognize that governments have LIMITED funds and that businesses thrive with fewer regulations. [/b]


Maybe businesses thrive with fewer regulations, but in the interest in having less Enrons, Walkertons, BSE Crisis to name a few - I believe that most people actually recognize that having more regulations of governments and business is of great benefit to our society. My measure of success isn't by dollars and cents, but rather focussed on the effect on our whole community. Bilingulism means more members of our society
feel included when dealing with the Federal Government, and for that reason alone, I feel is a successful program.

remind remind's picture

Why did you stop 20 years ago when providing proof that bilingualism is not working in any great amount? Does it begin to get more significant after that point or something?

However, in the case of my family it has worked very much. My daughters grandmother is French speaking, from Cape Breton, her father only spoke French until 5 when he was moved away. There were no bilingual classes for him to attend, and he lost the first of his school years having to learn English and being forced to forget French.

Now because of bilingual education their ancestry is being regained, and both my daughter and granddaughter can speak to their grandmother, while her own son cannot.

This does (edited to put in) "Not" make them want Canada to be "French" only, but it has given them back that 1/2 of their heritage. And there are 10's of thousands across Canada experiencing the same benefits and more will do so in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by CoryWillis:
[b]

2) My statement that bilingualism wasn't working was based on the points that it hasn't brought the Two Solitudes closer together, nor has it significantly increased the percentage of bilingual Canadians (from 13% in 1971 to 16% in 1986). Hence my question: do we try harder with the Trudeau vision, or do we try something else? I personally support the former, and don't care for Harper's plan, since it divided Belgium more than it brought them together.[/b]


[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: remind ]

CoryWillis

quote:


Originally posted by Hinterland:
[b]I think you'd have to prove this.[/b]

Two referendum votes are a good starting point, along with Bill 101 and anything Reform or the Bloc ever said about bilingualism.

quote:

[b]
You can't confuse the battles that politicians and the effect power politics have on national discourse with how communities react to each other, on a daily basis, in mundane matters. They're not the same thing.[/b]

That depends where you're from. I'm Albertan: the communities here don't react to each other at all, and the political culture is a direct offshoot of that.

CoryWillis

quote:


Originally posted by remind:
[b]Why did you stop 20 years ago when providing proof that bilingualism is not working in any great amount? Does it begin to get more significant after that point or something?
[/b]

No, that's just the statistic I had at hand, and I wonder the same thing myself. I hope it does change post-86, but I'm not optimistic. My (immigrant) parents put me in bilingual education, and it wasn't until university that I realised how rare that was in Alberta.

No Yards No Yards's picture

Remind, your story sounds like me . . . I was born in Cape Breton before bi-lingualism was the policy of the country, and only spoke French until I went to school, where I was forced to use only english, and my parents and grandparents were encouraged to get me to quickly forget any French I had aquired to that point.

My step-daughter came to Canada 3 years ago, with very little english, and now speaks both english and french . . . bi-lingualism certainly does work, and how anybody can believe that supporting the learning of other languages is a bad thing is simply beyond comprehension.

Hinterland

quote:


Two referendum votes are a good starting point, along with Bill 101 and anything Reform or the Bloc ever said about bilingualism.

I'm not sure that you understand the term [i]Two Solitudes[/i] correctly. Both the referendums and the Bill 101 (*ahem* [i]La Charte[/i]) are expressions of one of the solitudes speaking to the other and asking or demanding change. That's engagement, not solitude.

And as far as Alberta is concerned, well, it's a province with just over 3 million people. It's not the whole country.

CoryWillis

quote:


Originally posted by Hinterland:
[b]Both the referendums and the Bill 101 (*ahem* [i]La Charte[/i]) are expressions of one of the solitudes speaking to the other and asking or demanding change. That's engagement, not solitude.

And as far as Alberta is concerned, well, it's a province with just over 3 million people. It's not the whole country.[/b]


I look at my examples at statements of dissatisfaction with the current arrangement. Some of that dissatisfaction isn't wholly linguistic (and I should be careful not to mix issue), but what I said about the Reform / Bloc was two sides of the same coin. Both were refuting the bilingual compromise, and they had 100+ MPs supporting them.

And yes, Alberta has 3 million people. So what? Do you think that the situation is much better in northern BC, or Regina, or St. John's? Your postal code puts you somewhere around Gatineau -- sorry, Hinterland, but that's as good as it gets for exposure to both solitudes. I fear that my experience is more common that your skepticism.

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by remind:
[b]

What the hell, you have to go back to 1929 to give an examople of 1 Conservative government balancing a budget. What does that say to you about Conservative fiscal responsibility , eh? Moreover, what does it have to do with Harper and his wanting to make us over in Belguim's image?

Glad to see you noted that it is socialist countries and places that have balanced budgets and no debt, but again what has that to do with Belguim and Harper?.

[/b]


[Big grin] It's just that in spite of economic austerity measures in European countries, they are still rich countries. Their consvervatives and liberals would like to be a lot further to the right but can't afford to politically.

And you're right. Balanced budgets would be nice if life and the universe in general were not so chaotic. But they are and so are people and whole nations. Gone are the moribund economies for America and Canada of the 1930's where a dollar a day was a good wage; farmers couldnt afford to buy new tractors; life was grey for millions of working class people and banks were even tighter fisted institutions of the wealthy then than they are now. Political conservatism then made communism look good.

I just don't get this language thing. It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. This is typical of fascism to divide a nation along ethnic lines and class distinction.

We have problems of our own in Canada. We should be ashamed of our child poverty and infant mortality compared to Belgium. Belgium's socialists made inroads to coalition governance w the Liberals last year.

remind remind's picture

I just went to the WHO site and Belguim and Canada are equal in infant/child mortality according to 2002 indices.

[url=http://www.who.int/countries/en/]http://www.who.int/countries/en/[/url]

But I agree with Canada's child poverty status and our need to get serious about it. Which is something that could be down with the money that would be spent in turning us into Belguim. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

Grins not because of child poverty, but because I simply cannot believe this whole discussion about Canada becoming Belguim in the first place.

Harper, is a fine example of an educated idiot IMHO.


quote:

Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]

We have problems of our own in Canada. We should be ashamed of our child poverty and infant mortality compared to Belgium. Belgium's socialists made inroads to coalition governance w the Liberals last year.[/b]


[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: remind ]

Hinterland

quote:


I look at my examples at statements of dissatisfaction with the current arrangement. Some of that dissatisfaction isn't wholly linguistic (and I should be careful not to mix issue), but what I said about the Reform / Bloc was two sides of the same coin. Both were refuting the bilingual compromise, and they had 100+ MPs supporting them.

And yes, Alberta has 3 million people. So what? Do you think that the situation is much better in northern BC, or Regina, or St. John's? Your postal code puts you somewhere around Gatineau -- sorry, Hinterland, but that's as good as it gets for exposure to both solitudes. I fear that my experience is more common that your skepticism.


I don't know what you mean by skepticism. In any case, francophones have abandoned the bilingual compromise because we have to continually revisit its basic premise and defend it, over and over, in discussions just like this. And usually with people far removed from where the situation really matters (for the anglophone minority in Quйbec and the francophone minorities in Ontario and New Brunswick). Oh sure, I mean it's not important for [i]Albertans[/i], but I'm pretty sure nothing that doesn't directly affect Albertans is important to them, even though we are in fact talking about national matters, not provincial ones.

What can I say? I know your situation is probably more common than mine, but I submit that mine is more informed, based on my experience in both linguistic communities throughout the country.

The Oatmeal Savage

Do the french in quebec have the same high regard for bilingualism and other cultures that us rednecks in the ROC are supposed to have towards the french language and culture?

Hinterland

I take it that's not just a information-seeking question, is it, [i]M. Sauvage?[/i] I expect you're making some pointed comment instead. How lovely.

remind remind's picture

I too simply cannot believe how anyone can diss, bilingualism. Just the fact of learning another language is a good thing, irrespective of its unifying, social and heritage components as value added.

Their Grandmother is thrilled needless to say, and told them for the first time ever she feels like she has a "family" here in the west.


quote:

Remind, your story sounds like me . . . I was born in Cape Breton before bi-lingualism was the policy of the country, and only spoke French until I went to school, where I was forced to use only english, and my parents and grandparents were encouraged to get me to quickly forget any French I had aquired to that point.
My step-daughter came to Canada 3 years ago, with very little english, and now speaks both english and french . . . bi-lingualism certainly does work, and how anybody can believe that supporting the learning of other languages is a bad thing is simply beyond comprehension.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: remind ]

Reality. Bites.

Well it's really hard to tell what's inside the minds of millions of people, but according to the last census, 41% of Quebecers are bilingual. The only other province that comes close is New Brunswick, at 34%.

Nationally the average is 18%, but aside from QC and NB, no province exceeds 12%.

Overall, 55% of bilingual Canadians reside in Quebec. Another 25% of them are in Ontario (While only 12% of Ontarians are bilingual, that's still 1.3 million people.)

BleedingHeart

Most of us found him distasteful before that.

quote:

Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
[b]

Huh? I was referring to him being a bigot, remember his crack about minorities costing him the referendum? How come bilingualism didn't stop him from being elected? Or does this power only work against english speaking people?
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's BILINGUALISM MAN![/b]


remind remind's picture

Actually northern BC has a strong French component to it, as does Sask, more so than Alberta I suspect. Not very good examples Cory. the French I know both here and in Sask, certainly would state that your presumptions about them not caring would be wrong. Just where has your "experience" taken you outside of Alberta?

quote:

Originally posted by CoryWillis:
[b]

And yes, Alberta has 3 million people. So what? Do you think that the situation is much better in northern BC, or Regina, or St. John's? .. I fear that my experience is more common that your skepticism.[/b]


The Oatmeal Savage

quote:


Originally posted by Hinterland:
[b]I take it that's not just a information-seeking question, is it, [i]M. Sauvage?[/i] I expect you're making some pointed comment instead. How lovely.[/b]

Just expressing my legitimate concern that some of the folks in our fair land might not be getting the full benefits of bilingualism. I'd hate to see any Quebecers shortchanged in the tolerance department by not having bilingualism forced upon them.
And I'm hurt that you would think my motives were suspect.

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by remind:
[b]I just went to the WHO site and Belguim and Canada are equal in infant/child mortality according to 2002 indices.

[url=http://www.who.int/countries/en/]http://www.who.int/countries/en/[/url]
[/b]


Thanks for the info. I could find data on IM as recent as 1998 for Canada. If this
[url=http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/infopays/wfb/def/2091rank.php]student info site?[/url] is correct about 2004 IM rates, Canada is at 4.82 while Belgium owns 4.76 infant deaths per 1000 births. 0.06+ doesnt look like a significant diff in IM rate, but it adds up. The Belgian share of poverty income is also lower than Canada's. So why can't we have an IM rate comparable to Sweden or Norway ?.

Finland is one other Northern latitude nation with an indigenous population, and their national IM rate is significantly lower than Canada's. Socialism is a strong influence in that country.

Canada and the States(American IM rate of 7.0/1000) should be ashamed of our child poverty rates and figuring highest in the developed world but better than Mexico by comparison.

Canada's Liberals, and especially the American's, just haven't taken the UN(or Ed Broadbent) declared war on child poverty very seriously at all. I agree, Remind.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]

CoryWillis

quote:


Originally posted by remind:
[b]Actually northern BC has a strong French component to it, as does Sask, more so than Alberta I suspect. Not very good examples Cory. the French I know both here and in Sask, certainly would state that your presumptions about them not caring would be wrong. Just where has your "experience" taken you outside of Alberta?
[/b]

Where have I been? Well, Belgium for a start. My rejection of Harper's plan was based on my own experiences.

And Edmonton has quite a significant francophone population, including the Faculte St-Jean, the nation's westernmost French-language college. Does that make the city or even the greater neighbourhood truly bilingual? Has that brought greater understanding between people? Is there any significant cultural exchange? Not a chance, not like that which was intended.

Why don't you share your views on the current bilingualism policy (not your family experience, which was as positive as mine)? Would you expand it? Change it? Or just make bizarre debt and child mortality comments?

Contrarian

Probably the child death rates and the poverty rates are made worse by the aboriginal population in Canada, which Belgium does not have. Many, though not all, aboriginal people are poor; also the aboriginal population is growing and includes a greater proportion of children [as far as I know; don't have an actual reference.]

CoryWillis

Maybe so. But it has no place on a bilingualism thread.

Contrarian

Maybe you're just talking about bilingualism; others are talking about Canada, Belgium, Harper, etc.

Coyote

quote:


Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
[b]

Just expressing my legitimate concern that some of the folks in our fair land might not be getting the full benefits of bilingualism. I'd hate to see any Quebecers shortchanged in the tolerance department by not having bilingualism forced upon them.
[/b]


You're a joke, Oatmeal. Quebecers have to learn English to do anything outside of Quebec, and many do, thus reaping the reward of official bilingualism. And if you have had French forced on you so effectively, je m'attends a ce que tu repondes en francais.

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by Contrarian:
[b]Probably the child death rates and the poverty rates are made worse by the aboriginal population in Canada, which Belgium does not have. Many, though not all, aboriginal people are poor; also the aboriginal population is growing and includes a greater proportion of children [as far as I know; don't have an actual reference.][/b]

That's right. Canada does have indigenous people living in third world conditions. I've observed it myself in Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba. Socialist Finland is one other northern country with a native people population. I wonder what their national IM rate is ?.

And here's a teaser. Prior to 1991, how did Iraq's IM rate compare to all other Arab nations ?.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]

remind remind's picture

Findland, has lower IM at 4/3 according to WHO for 2002.

It is my perception, that our vast territory, which means huge distances travelled to medical services that are adequate, could be in play with the elevated IM stats.

For serious complications, in the northern interior of BC let's say, unless you are in a urban area, or one has to travel 2 hours at a minimum to get specialized care. In some cases it is 3 hours or more just from town to town. When your giving birth, that is a long time from the determing point of being in crisis, and action is taken to transfer. Also, you have a wait for transportation and then the journey.

Finland has no geographic scales like ours to be effective in. Transportation costs alone drive health board's and officials budgets higher.

Having said that, it is still no excuse. Money given out in corporate welfare could be directed this way, as well as towards maternity programs.

remind remind's picture

This thread is "Harper suggests turning Canada into Belguim". Bilingualism is but a facet.


quote:

Originally posted by CoryWillis:
[b]Maybe so. But it has no place on a bilingualism thread.[/b]

The Oatmeal Savage

quote:


Originally posted by Coyote:
[b]You're a joke, Oatmeal. Quebecers have to learn English to do anything outside of Quebec, and many do, thus reaping the reward of official bilingualism. And if you have had French forced on you so effectively, je m'attends a ce que tu repondes en francais.[/b]

Nah, I don't feel like responding to you in french, although I was forced to take it in high school 25 years ago.
Should we discuss Quebec's tolerance regarding their sign law?
[url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/language/]http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/...

[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: The Oatmeal Savage ]

Hinterland

No, let's talk about your non-existence French, you whiny big mouth.

The Oatmeal Savage

Hey, how do I say "cry me a river" in french?

Coyote

quote:


Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
[b]
Nah, I don't feel like responding to you in french, although I was forced to take it in high school 25 years ago.
[/b]

Such a tender flower to be so sorely mistreated. You seriously are a parody of yourself.

The Oatmeal Savage

There certainly is a lot of name-calling on this subject. Would that be because of the lack of any rational arguement for bilingualism in the ROC? Or is it because any of those arguements can be turned turned right around and applied to bilingualism and respect for other cultures in Quebec? The Ukainians and other don't seem to have any trouble keeping their culture alive, why is it the only way french can survive is if the english pay for it? Or is that part of their culture now?

Briguy

I personally think that official bilingualism is a dirty trick. Trudeau launched it as a method of identifying and isolating anti-intellectual imbeciles, just to prevent said imbeciles from controlling elections in Canada, as they do in the US. Another success story!

[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Briguy ]

remind remind's picture

Glad you brought up Ukrainians, I was wondering when they would be mentioned. No, there is no lack of rational argument for bilingualism, but there may be a lack of rational in Harper, but maybe not either.

Moreover, the Ukrainians, have not independantly kept their culture alive, they too have drunk long and hard from the federal multicultural revenue pot. How about a more balanced look at things?

Now lets talk Harper and Belgium. Most likely under our current Charter of Rights, if Francophone and Anglophone community institutions were given the absolute jurisdiction over things like telecommunications and broadcasting, all other "linguistic" groups and their communities would have that right entrenched in law for them too. Conceivably the separate communities could/would control all information coming into them. Many geographic regions in Canada = religious=social=political persuasions. Such as the long standing Ukrainian, Mennonite and other such communities that are found across Canada

Harper's strategies and comments in this regard were interestingly duplicitous. As really, that is already happening across Canada, in telecommunications and broadcasting, anyway without any entrenched linguistic governing body needed like in Belgium. PQ has all its own French media stations and some are readily available across Canada on cable and wireless. Other ethnic and cultural media and programming are continuing to increase in Canada, well beyond that of our neighbours to the south and perhaps beyond that of other countries around the world. And they will no doubt become more significant in the future. This alone may prove that bilingualism and multiculturalism is in good working order and growing in Canada.

So, really why would we need to have a complete change in government construct, a huge cost in many ways in order to fix something that is not broken? We Canadians have demanded and gotten “linguistic” cultural telecommunications and broadcast capabilities without having many levels of federal politicians to ensure it. As such, do we need more levels of federal government politicians? Belgium has 6 levels of federal government, which is not a smaller federal government as the CPC said they wanted but a bigger one.

Furthermore, Belgium is a constitutional monarchy. Does Harper want to import that as well?

quote:

Executive branch:

chief of state: King ALBERT II (since 9 August 1993); Heir Apparent Prince PHILIPPE, son of the monarch
head of government: Prime Minister Guy VERHOFSTADT (since 13 July 1999)
cabinet: Council of Ministers formally appointed by the monarch
elections: none; the monarchy is hereditary; following legislative elections, the leader of the majority party or the leader of the majority coalition is usually appointed prime minister by the monarch and then approved by Parliament

Political pressure groups and leaders:

Christian, Socialist, and Liberal Trade Unions; Federation of Belgian Industries; numerous other associations representing bankers, manufacturers, middle-class artisans, and the legal and medical professions; various organizations represent the cultural interests of Flanders and Wallonia; various peace groups such as Pax Christi and groups representing immigrants


[url=http://worldinfo.amillionlives.com/Description-Belgium-2.html] Belgium [/url]

As far as I am concerned, there is much more behind this than trying to get PQ votes for the CPC. It is way too bizarre to be just a vote getter. What it is though is up for seculation, I suppose.

Harpers words:

"In Belgium, for example, federal authority is shared not only by geographical regions, but also according to linguistic communities," Harper said.

"Instead of giving more authority to provinces in areas like culture or international relations, the federal government could, in concert with the provinces and especially Quebec, establish francophone and anglophone community institutions in areas of jurisdiction like telecommunications and broadcasting."

How big of a component are those in the RoC that do not want to pay for bilingualism, 5000, 10,000 or more?

quote:

Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
[b] Would that be because of the lack of any rational arguement for bilingualism in the ROC? Or is it because any of those arguements can be turned turned right around and applied to bilingualism and respect for other cultures in Quebec? The Ukainians and other don't seem to have any trouble keeping their culture alive, why is it the only way french can survive is if the english pay for it? Or is that part of their culture now?[/b]

Coyote

quote:


Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
[b]There certainly is a lot of name-calling on this subject. Would that be because of the lack of any rational arguement for bilingualism in the ROC? Or is it because any of those arguements can be turned turned right around and applied to bilingualism and respect for other cultures in Quebec? The Ukainians and other don't seem to have any trouble keeping their culture alive, why is it the only way french can survive is if the english pay for it? Or is that part of their culture now?[/b]

Oh bugger off. How much time have you ever spent in Quebec? Montreal is the most cosmopolitan city in Canada, with an incredible mix of cultures. Rural Quebec is no more uni-cultural than rural communities anywhere else.

We are a bilingual country. I would love to see other languages adopted into that, so that we can join the rest of the civilized world in expecting our citizenry to speak more than their mother tongue.

Whatever else sucked about the last election's debates, and a lot did, it was good to watch the leaders of all four major parties acquiting themselves well in both official languages . . . something that has always been expected of leaders coming from Quebec, but not from leaders from the ROC (Chretien DOES NOT COUNT!). The double standard is applied against French and Francophone communities, not the other way around.

You remain a twit, no matter how many bigoted articles you put forward.

เกมส์ยิงปลาW88
The Oatmeal Savage

quote:


We are a bilingual country. I would love to see other languages adopted into that, so that we can join the rest of the civilized world in expecting our citizenry to speak more than their mother tongue.

Speaking of civilized, could a person put up a chinese sign on their business in Quebec without also putting up one in french that was twice as large? Or would the business get fire bombed? Could he put up a french sign on a business in the ROC without having to answer to any language police? Seems like a double standard.

Reality. Bites.

quote:


Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
[b]Speaking of civilized, could a person put up a chinese sign on their business in Quebec without also putting up one in french that was twice as large? Or would the business get fire bombed? [/b]

I don't know, but if there's even the remotest chance I'm certainly willing to have you try it.

Sara Mayo

quote:


Seems like a double standard

Of course it's a double standard!

The circumstances of the survival and promotion of the French and English Language in North American are compeltely different, and thus require different sets of regulations.

The Oatmeal Savage

So what about chinese or other languages and cultures in Quebec, are they somehow less valuable? Shouldn't they be protected from being overwhelmed by the french culture?

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